Interview with Daniel Prinz and Lars Conrad

1.   How did the idea for your program Männer zwischen Rausch und Verzweiflung (Men Between Ecstasy and Despair) develop, and what prompted your joint artistic examination of masculinity?

LC: The program was conceived within the framework of our grant from the German Music Competition, for which we were required to curate concert programs. It quickly became clear to us that we wished to dedicate ourselves to an overarching theme. We believe that recital programs featuring lieder are most compelling when thematically structured – when the art songs, through the context in which they are presented, are cast in a different light and convey new meanings. The idea of engaging with the theme of masculinity arose fairly early as we considered what direction our work might take.

DP: Our first program was 1816 – Geh unter Welt (1816 – Perish, World), which we found to be very somber. We had the desire to create a lighter counterprogram, which ultimately didn’t quite work out as planned. Our starting point was to create a program of drinking songs, and we asked ourselves: What social function does alcohol serve? What role does it play specifically among men? Through themes such as male aggression and the tendency to suppress emotions – often with the aid of alcohol – we eventually arrived at the broader thematic complex of masculinity, which concerns both of us on a deeply personal level.

2. In what ways does the title reflect your personal experiences or observations of male identities?

LC: For me, the period during which this program took shape was emotionally very intense, and the question of how I experience emotions as a man was at the forefront. The “despair” in the title clearly stems from this personal confrontation. I have given considerable thought to why it is so difficult for me to acknowledge certain emotions or manage them. That was the point at which I began to critically examine ideas of masculinity – initially by reflecting biographically: How was I taught to handle feelings? Or not to? In music theater, I was repeatedly confronted with expectations about how a man should present himself on stage. There were moments – at competitions, for example – when I was told to appear more aggressive. To me, that was tantamount to “You are not masculine enough.” And that left a mark. I realized that I had long struggled with traditional ideals of masculinity. Perhaps I never wanted to belong to that specific type of masculinity – loud, rational, optimized, often aggressive. There is a deep ambivalence in me.

DP: What moves me most in our program is the question of vulnerability – the desire to be able, and allowed, to show it. The recurring motif of alcohol consumption was also a personal point of departure. I have witnessed how alcohol changes communication between people; how it is used by men to avoid confronting their vulnerability or to escape into a parallel world where pain – and thus despair – becomes bearable. I also sensed very early on, even in school, that I did not conform to the traditional male image, at least outwardly. And for a long time, I tried to live up to that standard. It took time before

I was able to let that go.

3. Your program brings together works by Brahms, Eisler, Wolf, Schumann, and Schubert. How did you choose these composers and pieces, and how do they collectively narrate a story about masculinity?

LC: We quickly decided to take the complete Brahms cycle as our starting point. From there, we soughtto complement it with differing perspectives by adding works by other composers. Already in the first two groups of works, a complex dynamic emerges – one that we explore in greater depth and nuance in the second half of the program. For me, the contrast between Brahms and Eisler represents two poles: on the one hand, the sensitive and emotionally perceptive man as portrayed in the texts by August von Platen – texts that also address questions of sexual orientation, homosexuality, and the inner struggle they provoke. On the other hand, the vulgarity, brutality, and misogyny embedded in the music and texts of the Anakreontische Fragmente (Anacreontic Fragments). Our program navigates this complex

interplay. In the second part, we then go into more detail. We chose the Schumann songs because they highlight various themes that particularly interested us: Auf das Trinkglas eines verstorbenen Freundes (To the Drinking Glass of a Departed Friend) addresses male friendships – a topic of great contemporary relevance in the context of the so-called “male loneliness epidemic”. Stille Tränen (Silent Tears) engages with themes such as depression and grief. And with the drinking songs, we return to Anacreon, who in turn inspired Goethe. Numerous small cross-references emerge across the program, which I find especially compelling: we begin with Anacreon and, by the end, we stand at his grave.

DP: What characterizes the Brahms cycle for me above all is a sense of uncertainty. It depicts a man for whom love – whether for a partner of any gender – serves as an existential anchor, a support that he ultimately loses. I have the impression that these songs articulate thoughts which often remain unspoken in real life – thoughts that men tend to keep to themselves or suppress. This suppression becomes explicit in Eisler’s songs, with their vulgarity, and is intensified further in Wolf’s drinking songs, which promote “drinking wisdoms” that would be unacceptable today. For example, in the relatively unknown song Frech und froh (Cheeky and Cheerful), which is composed of two parts, the first outlines the ABCs of male behavior with lines such as, “If she is not willing, you simply take it.” That conveys a conception of masculinity that is entirely unacceptable today. What I find fascinating is that, beginning with Brahms, the question “Through what outlets do men seek to counter their pain?” arises. In Schumann, we find not only vulnerability – as in Stille Tränen and Auf das Trinkglas eines verstorbenen

Freundes – but also a striving for autonomy. In Wanderlied (The Wanderer’s Song), for instance, it’s about breaking away from home and family, and seeking a place for oneself in the world. Even in Eisler, the longing for home resurfaces – though in a different tone. Finally, in Belsatzar, we are presented with an image of masculinity that could hardly be more timely: King Beshazzar, who, during a drunken revel, exalts himself above God by filling the sacred chalice – and is killed that very night. Here, the intoxication with power and the masculine drive for domination are made manifest.

4. What problems, sufferings, hopes, and joys are manifest in the songs of your program?

LC: We have tried to highlight aspects of masculinity that are problematic – both in how one relates to oneself and others – for example, self-care, the difficulty of loving oneself, and emotions – how one allows them, or doesn’t. It also deals with questions of power – of the will to dominate, misogyny, and the objectification of women. At the same time, we were concerned to include lieder that present other aspects of masculinity. This can be seen, for example, in Wanderlied – this setting out into the world, this active engagement. And for us, Brahms strongly represents sensitivity, vulnerability, and feminism.

DP: When it comes to joy, it’s above all the Schumann lieder that, for me, bring a sense of lightness to the program – especially in stark contrast to the dark, at times harsh, drinking songs by Wolf. Socializing in a tavern can be part of life without necessarily becoming excessive or morally questionable. Schumann effectively explores the topic with humor and levity.

LC: At the same time, the figure portrayed is someone at peace with himself, someone who can be alone. That is a welcome counterpoint to the despairing, abandoned lovers in Brahms. For me, the entire program expresses our hope that masculinities are not static, but changeable. That the pressure on men to be a certain way can be lifted – and that through this, life might improve for many, not only for men.

DP: Yes, I agree. When these songs touch on emotions that are deeply familiar to many men, it can set something in motion. Perhaps the first impulse comes from the realization, “I am not alone; others share my sentiments.” That can be the first step toward engaging more deeply with one’s own emotions and expressing them more openly.

5. Are there moments in the music – perhaps in a particular lied – where you particularly recognize yourself, or where you feel especially challenged?

DP: The drinking songs by Wolf are particularly challenging for me – not because of the texts, but fortechnical reasons. The music is highly excessive, and our goal was to perform with as little control as possible and as much exuberance as we could muster. Precisely because this music has a rough and unruly quality, it becomes very physical. I feel a strong connection to the emotional worlds expressed in Brahms' songs. In contrast, much of the drinking song material feels quite foreign to me on a textual level.

LC: The opening lied, Wie rafft’ ich mich auf in der Nacht (How I Leapt Up in the Night), holds a special place in my heart. In it, there’s the line “How did you spend your days?” – a profound question that he hurls at himself, a form of self-accusation. These are feelings I know very well, feelings that have caused me a great deal of suffering, but through which I’ve also grown. Beyond that, I can identify closely with some of Schumann’s songs and feel deeply understood in them. For example, Lust der Sturmnacht (Pleasure of a Stormy Night) – there’s something defiant in it, which I also recognize in myself. It was a significant challenge to embody the drinking songs and the texts of Anacreon, though their content is not entirely unfamiliar to me either. When I dig deeply into myself, I find that I do know these thoughts and

feelings – the darker sides of myself, or patterns I’ve developed. For instance: when I want something, I feel I have to take it. Sometimes behind that lies the wish to have a little more ruthlessness in me – not toward others, but toward the consequences – to stop overthinking everything so relentlessly.

6. What personal experiences or questions concerning masculinity did you bring to the development of this project?

LC: This project is profoundly shaped by our shared search and struggle with the question: What does it mean to be a man? Or: How can we understand ourselves as men in a way that we recognize ourselves in and that makes us happy? In my case, that has been a lengthy process, spanning from puberty through my late twenties. Much of that experience was incorporated into this program. I find it fascinating that, through working on this project, my perception has changed. I’ve often been asked why masculinity and femininity need to be defined at all – why we remain trapped in this dualistic view and don’t break out of it. And yet, I do feel and identify as a man, and I want to understand what that means. It saddens me that masculinity is so often defined in negative terms: masculinity as everything that is not feminine. This project was therefore also an attempt to find a male identity that I can stand behind – and that I genuinely want to live out. Much of that is reflected in this album: the courage to be vulnerable,

sensitive, and open; to pursue an emotionally driven, rather than purely rational or controlling, way of life; to envision a masculinity that does not suppress, but resonates – one that meets others at eye level. Of course, we also have to deal with the problematic sides of masculinity – the desire to dominate, violence, oppression. But just as important to me is that we illuminate positive aspects – that we show the potential inherent in other forms of masculinity.

DP: I strongly relate to that. For me too, it was important to explore masculinity – especially because I identify as a man and often felt disheartened when I saw that men weren’t seen as sensitive or emotionally attuned. If sensitivity is not part of being a man, what does that mean for me? Something fundamental is missing. The album was a significant process for me in this regard. Especially in the drinking songs – whenever raw, sometimes reckless force is voiced – I sensed aspects of myself that I do not live out in everyday life. These are not unfamiliar to me, however. There is something untamed in them, a certain “I don’t care what others think” attitude. Undeniably, this often veers into negativity in the lieder – into violence or a lack of consideration. But I also believe there’s energy in that – energy that can be useful in daily life. For example, to speak honestly about what you think. The real question is: How can I harness this strength without harming others? This remains a fascinating subject for me, and it has a lot to do with self-confidence.

7. What does masculinity mean to you personally? Has your perspective changed as a consequence of working on this project?

DP: Personally, I do not believe that masculinity – or, as its counterpoint, femininity – can or should be boxed in or confined. Yet, it remains vital for me to identify myself as a man. What has changed for me through this project is the way I see things I previously might not have considered “masculine”, but which nonetheless belong to me. I can now accept and embrace them. I don’t want anyone telling me what my own manhood is supposed to be, and I hope this question will continue to be explored on a societal level, so that future generations may have more freedom to be who they truly are.

LC: Simply by virtue of the project extending over a long period, much has changed – my view of myself, my social role, and position as a man. Many things have shifted; aspects with which I am now at peace and which I proudly recognize as part of my personality and identity. I have reflected more deeply on the diversity of masculinity – the various ways it can be expressed, as well as the privileges I possess. At times, I am reminded that I still act according to old patriarchal patterns, and I strive to question and move beyond them. At the same time, I’ve always felt a sense of belonging in the art song through my sensitivity. This affirmation, along with the purely musical engagement, has given me new inspiration.

8. Why is it essential today to engage musically with male role models?

DP: I clearly recall the period when more and more companies adopted rainbow-colored logos. In the 2010s, it felt as if the world was growing steadily more open. But even then, I sensed that there would be a backlash. Today, we feel this counter-movement all too keenly. Images of masculinity are resurfacing – ruthless and entitled, taking whatever they want – just like those depicted in some of our lieder. Although such content does not often appear in my personal social media feeds, I am aware it reaches millions. There are countless videos promoting ideas of how a “real man” should behave. We reject this content and aim to articulate our own statement in response.

LC: I fully agree. When we conceived this program in 2022, the topic received comparatively little

attention. But at the latest, since Donald Trump’s re-election, hypermasculinity has become even more pronounced, increasingly forming part of the political agenda of the right. This identity – the Silicon Valley mindset – significantly influences politics today, and the notion of what a “real man” should be is pervasive. As someone who neither relates to nor accepts such identity politics, I fear that my way of life may one day be at risk. This doesn’t necessarily concern masculinity, but rather sexuality, considering, for instance, that this year, no Christopher Street Day parade can occur without police protection, and attacks are being plotted against such events against those who do not conform to prevailing identity politics. As a white cis man*, I am exempted from many types of hostility, though in other ways I am implicated. For all these reasons, I consider it vital to take a stand against such identity politics, against

such models of masculinity, and oppression. Men oppress one another as well. Meanwhile, reports of male suicide remain unceasing, as do reports of men being drawn into war. All of these are interconnected aspects.

9. What are your hopes for a future understanding of masculinity, or men's behavior and selfperception?

LC: I hope for flexibility – that we might move beyond rigid role models to a more open and tolerant conception of masculinity. It would be welcome if men ceased defining themselves solely in opposition to the feminine, finding instead positive attributes through which they can define themselves –attributes that also foster cohesion and support among men. Masculinity should not mean dominating or suppressing others, but rather interacting openly, collectively, and in a spirit of solidarity – among men and all other identities that exist – that everyone can live freely and with autonomy.

DP: I agree with Lars; I, too, would wish for more fluidity and that people have the freedom to be who they want to be, without censure or ridicule. I am aware that this cannot be achieved overnight. Still, much would be gained if we encountered one another with respect and on equal footing, without – however lightheartedly – passing comment on each other.

*Cis men are men who were assigned male gender at birth and identify as such

Translation Erik Lloyd Dorset